ART21 | Spirituality | Season 1 | Episode 2

Woman: I LIKE TO SEE PEOPLE'S HAND IN THE WORLD.

Woman: IF IT DOESN'T HAVE AMBIGUITY, DON'T BOTHER.

Man: I THINK THE AMBIGUITY IS WHERE THE SPIRITUAL LIES.

Woman: IT'S ABOUT A REALLY, VERY FUNDAMENTAL ACT OF MAKING.

MY NAME IS S. EPATHA MERKERSON.

ACTING AND QUILTING ARE ART FORMS

THROUGH WHICH I FOUND MY VOICE.

IN THIS PROGRAM, YOU'LL MEET FOUR ARTISTS

WHOSE WORKS TOUCH ON SPIRITUALITY,

A THREAD THAT CONNECTS US ALL.

♫I GO ON REPEATING♫

♫THE VOICES OF MEMORY♫

♫IT'S TOO LATE TO CHANGE♫

♫THAT NOW♫

I'VE ALWAYS FELT THAT THERE IS

THIS VERY STRONG CONNECTION FOR ME

BETWEEN THE THREAD OF SEWING AND THE LINE OF THAT THREAD,

AND THE THREAD OF WRITING.

I CERTAINLY GREW UP

DOING A LOT OF HAND WORK, NEEDLE WORK, SEWING,

KNITTING, EMBROIDERY,

ALL OF THOSE TRADITIONAL TEXTILE ARTS.

I THINK THE PROCESS IS JUST REALLY SATISFYING,

BUT THE METAPHORS THE CLOTH OFFER UP

ARE REALLY EXTRAORDINARILY BEAUTIFUL

BECAUSE EVERY PIECE OF CLOTH

THAT WE WEAR IS MADE UP OF ALL THESE INDIVIDUAL THREADS,

WHATEVER THEIR WEAVE,

AND THAT EACH ONE OF THOSE

IS STILL SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN SEE.

AND THE WHOLE CLOTH NEEDS EACH ONE OF THOSE.

AND SO AS A SOCIAL METAPHOR TO ME,

IT'S ACTUALLY VERY BEAUTIFUL.

THE VERY FIRST PIECE I DID, WHEN I WAS IN GRADUATE SCHOOL,

I HAD TAKEN JUST KIND OF A GENERIC GRAY MAN'S SUIT

AND COVERED IT IN TOOTHPICKS

SO THAT THE WHOLE SKIN OF CLOTH BECAME LIKE A HIDE,

IT LOOKED LIKE A PORCUPINE.

"FIND THE LINEAR

BROKEN BELOW A HUMAN FORM."

I KNOW FOR ME, THAT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE THREAD

AND THE WRITTEN LINE AND THE DRAWN LINE,

IT'S ABOUT A REALLY,

VERY FUNDAMENTAL ACT OF MAKING --

THAT THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE LINE

THAT MAKES SOMETHING

IS RELATED TO HOW WE MAKE THINGS WITH LANGUAGE.

I THINK THAT I'M ALWAYS TRYING TO WORK WITH WORDS AS MATERIALS

THE SAME WAY I WORK WITH OTHER KINDS OF MATERIALS.

THE PROJECT "LINEAMENT,"

WHICH IS A TITLE THAT COMES FROM A WALLACE STEVENS POEM,

THAT FLAT, TWO-DIMENSIONAL PLANE OF THE PAGE

IS MADE INTO A THREE-DIMENSIONAL BODY

BECAUSE EACH LINE IS LIFTED OUT OF THE BOOK

AS IF IT IS A THREAD.

AND THAT THREAD OF TEXT IS RUN THROUGH THE HANDS,

IT'S TACTILE, IT'S TOUCHED.

AND THEN IT CREATES A BALL, WHICH IS THE BODY OF THE PAGE.

SO THERE ARE ALL THESE PLACES I SEE

THAT THERE IS THIS CONSTANT TIE

OF THREAD AS LINE

AND LINE AS LINE OF WRITING.

AND I GO DOWN THAT WAY, RIGHT.

I'M JUST GOING TO SET UP THE PIPES

AND THEN WE'LL BRING THE FABRIC OVER.

SEVEN, EIGHT, NINE.

FOR ME, WORKING AN INSTALLATION

IS TO WORK IN RELATION TO A PARTICULAR PLACE.

YOU'RE COMING IN AND YOU'RE, IN SOME SENSES,

ANIMATING THE SPACE.

AND...

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT SPACE OR SITUATION WILL DO TO YOU

AND VICE VERSA, WHAT YOU WILL DO TO IT.

LIKE, YOU TRY TO MAKE YOURSELF BLANK

SO THAT YOU CAN JUST PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT COMES UP,

WHAT IT MAKES YOU THINK OF, WHAT ARE THE THINGS YOU FEEL,

ALL OF THOSE WAYS THAT YOUR SKIN,

AS AN ORGAN AND AS A MEMBRANE, IS INCREDIBLY SMART.

AND IMMEDIATELY, YOU WALK THROUGH ANY THRESHOLD

AND YOU SMELL, AND YOU FEEL THE TEMPERATURE AND THE LIGHT,

AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS THAT HAVE AN ENORMOUS INFLUENCE.

Man: THIS PARTICULAR BUILDING,

IT'S HAD 1,200 PEOPLE WORKING HERE AT ONE TIME.

IT'S IN AN AREA THAT WAS

SORT OF LIKE A COMPANY TOWN AREA

AND IT'S BEEN FORGOTTEN.

AND IT JUST WENT OUT OF BUSINESS

ABOUT THREE MONTHS AGO.

I DIDN'T EVER ACTUALLY VISIT THIS BUILDING

WHEN IT WAS IN OPERATION,

BUT AS A TEXTILE FACTORY AND HOUSE OF PRODUCTION

THAT WAS NOW SILENCED.

YOU KNOW, THE HOLLOWNESS OF THAT,

THE EMPTINESS OF THAT...

WAS VERY PALPABLE.

I'M ALL THUMBS TODAY WITH THIS STRING.

GRAB THE STRING.

I WANTED TO HAVE ONE ROOM BE THE ROOM OF THE WRITER

AND ONE ROOM BE THE ROOM OF THE READER.

AND NOW THEY BECOME GHOST-LIKE SUSPENSIONS OF SILK ORGANZA

THAT SIT SIDE BY SIDE.

SO THEY'RE IDENTICAL IN FORM.

THEY'RE ABOUT 30 FOOT SQUARE ROOMS THAT ARE

JUST SUSPENDED WITHIN THE ARCHITECTURE.

HEY, EMMET, COULD YOU CARRY THIS OVER THERE

WITH THE OTHER PIPES?

OKAY -- THERE YOU GO.

AND THEN WITHIN EACH OF THOSE ROOMS

THERE'S A LONG 10 FOOT WOODEN TABLE.

AND UPON THAT WILL BE A SPINNING PROJECTOR.

Man: WITH WHAT ANN'S DOING,

REMEMBER SHE'S NOT A TRADITIONAL ARTIST IN THE SENSE THAT

IT'S NOT A PIECE OF PAINTING OR IT'S A PIECE OF SCULPTOR.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE REALLY HAVE TO REACH FOR

AND HAVE TO BREAK OUT OF WHAT THEY EXPECT TO SEE.

AND IT'S SAYING REALLY TO THE PEOPLE

THAT THERE'S MORE HERE THAN WE EVEN SAW.

AND THERE'S SOMEONE ELSE THAT'S SEEING THAT.

Hamilton: HERE, EMMET, YOU CAN HELP PULL THE PROJECTOR.

OKAY?

SO RIGHT NOW THIS IS ACTUALLY THE SECTION

THAT'S GOING BACKWARDS IN THE VIDEO.

SO IT'S THE PENCILS, LIKE, EATING THE LINE.

Woman: PART OF MAKING WORK IS TO ALLOW THOSE THINGS

PERHAPS THAT ARE ALWAYS ALREADY THERE BUT NOT VISIBLE TO US.

AND TO TRY TO MAKE THEM VISIBLE

IN A WAY THAT THEY'RE EXPERIENCEABLE.

THIS JEFFERSONIAN,

NEO-CLASSICAL BUILDING WE INHERIT AS A REAL

EMBLEM OF AN AMERICAN DEMOCRATIC IDEAL.

AND SO I WANTED TO ENGAGE THAT IN THE BUILDING.

HOW DO WE DEAL WITH THE STAINS OF OUR OWN HISTORY?

HOW DO WE TAKE THOSE ASPECTS OF OUR SOCIAL HISTORY --

SLAVERY BEING THE LARGEST ONE --

THAT WE HAVE A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY

THAT WAS FOUNDED AND BASED IN SLAVERY?

AND HOW DO YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?

I FELT LIKE THE ONLY WAY TO DO IT,

PERHAPS, WAS VERY ABSTRACTLY.

THIS STREAM OF INTENSELY CHROMA FUCHSIA POWDER

SIFTED DOWN THE WALLS.

AND IT WOULD CATCH ON RAISED PLASTER DOTS

THAT WERE FIXED TO THE WALLS, SPELLING OUT A TEXT IN BRAILLE.

AND THAT TEXT WAS EDITED FROM THE POEMS BY CHARLES REZNIKOV.

FROM THE CORNER OF EACH OF THE FOUR ROOMS

THERE WAS A SOUNDTRACK OF LINCOLN'S

SECOND INAUGURAL ADDRESS, WHICH WAS REALLY ONE OF HEALING.

IT WAS TRANSLATED LETTER BY LETTER

INTO THE PHONETIC ALPHABET.

CHARLIE, ECHO, ALPHA --

SIERRA, ECHO --

I LIVE IN OHIO, AND I MOVED BACK

AFTER TEACHING FOR ABOUT SEVEN YEARS IN SANTA BARBARA.

IT IS A VERY CONSCIENCE DECISION TO WANT TO MOVE

AND BE CLOSER TO MY FAMILY,

WHO LIVE HERE.

THIS IS WHERE I GREW UP.

IT'S A KIND OF A REAL COMFORT TO COME HOME

AND TO WORK OUT OF THAT PLACE.

AND FOR A LONG TIME

MY PARENTS ALSO REALLY HELPED WITH A LOT OF MY WORK.

YOU KNOW, MY MOTHER WOULD SOMETIMES FLY OUT

TO WORK ON A BIG PROJECT.

AND MY DAD HAS HELPED ON PROJECTS.

AND NOW INCREASINGLY, THEY'RE, THEY PROVIDE ME

WITH THAT KIND OF BACKUP THAT ACTUALLY ALLOWS ME

TO DO THE KIND OF TRAVELING THAT MY WORK HAS NEEDED.

AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE MUCH HARDER FOR ME

IF I DIDN'T HAVE ALL THAT.

DO YOU WANT TO HELP CHANGE THE FILM?

YOU CAN'T BE A MOM

AND HAVE A CHILD IN KINDERGARTEN

AND NOT HAVE SOME OTHER HELP.

HEY, EMMET, DO YOU WANT TO COME SEE YOUR PICTURE?

THERE'S A ASPECT OF MY WORK WHICH IS WANTING TO GIVE VOICE,

BUT MY VOICE IS NOT NECESSARILY

THE VOICE THAT'S HERE.

I FEEL LIKE MY VOICE IS MAYBE HERE AND HERE.

AND SO, HOW DO I LITERALLY MAKE THE PLACE

WHERE SONG ALSO, AS WELL AS ALL OTHER WORDS, EXITS THE BODY

ACTUALLY BECOME MY EYE?

I DEVISED A WAY OF MAKING PINHOLE CAMERAS.

I PUT THE CAMERA IN MY MOUTH AND THEN I UNBLOCK THE APERTURE

SO THAT WHEN I REOPEN MY LIPS,

I'M ACTUALLY EXPOSING THE FILM.

YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NEVER SUPPOSED

TO HAVE YOUR MOUTH OPEN IN PUBLIC.

THIS IS LIKE YOU DON'T SEE PEOPLE STANDING, YOU KNOW...

IT'S A VULNERABLE POSITION, IT'S A PLACE WHERE --

IT'S LIKE YOU'VE RELAXED

AND YOU'VE LET YOURSELF BE OPEN AND VULNERABLE.

Woman: SORRY.

YOU READY?

Hamilton: IT BECAME VERY INTERESTING.

TO REGISTER THIS TIME OF STANDING

QUITE STILL FACE TO FACE WITH ANOTHER PERSON,

LIKE SOUL TO SOUL AND REVEALING SOMETHING

THAT'S NOT, YOU KNOW,

THE SURFACE STUFF THAT WE USUALLY ALLOW

OUT TO THE WORLD.

THE SHAPE OF THE MOUTH

IS VERY MUCH THE SAME SHAPE AS THE EYE.

AND THE IMAGE BECOMES ALMOST LIKE THE PUPIL.

[ DOOR BELL RINGS ]

[ DARK BARKS ]

GOOD.

SO TO SOMETIMES INVERT THE LOCATION OF ONE SENSE

TO ANOTHER PART OF THE BODY --

THOSE KIND OF DISLOCATIONS, THEY'RE SLIPPAGES --

IS ONE WAY THAT WE COME TO SEE SOMETHING DIFFERENTLY.

Woman: LOOKS LIKE THERE'S FIRE COMING OFF OF YOUR HAND.

WOW, LOOK AT, LOOK, OH.

TOTALLY MAGIC.

Man: IT'S A FLAT SHEET OF WATER

WITH SOAP ON EITHER SIDE,

AND IT'S ABOUT A 50th

OF THE THICKNESS OF A HUMAN HAIR.

AND WHEN THINGS GET THAT THIN, LIKE OIL SLICKS ON A WATER,

THEY TEND TO REFLECT

CERTAIN COLORS OF LIGHT DEPENDING ON THEIR THICKNESS.

I JUST THOUGHT IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO TRY TO SEE IF ANN

WOULD BE ABLE TO INCORPORATE THIS IS ANY OF HER WORK.

Hamilton: YOU KNOW, MAARTEN

SORT OF SAID "I'M DOING THIS THING,"

AND THEN HE DEMONSTRATED IT.

IT'S LIKE, I DON'T KNOW NECESSARILY HOW, OR WHEN,

OR WHAT I WOULD USE THIS,

BUT IT'S BECOMING INCREASINGLY CLEAR TO ME THAT

IT'S RELATED TO EVERYTHING I'VE EVER DONE.

YOU KNOW, IT'S THE FLUIDITY OF THE CLOTH.

IT'S THE WAY THAT YOU CAN TAKE YOUR HANDS

AND YOU CAN GO THROUGH THE MEMBRANE OF IT.

OH, I LOVE THIS BUBBLE

COMING OUT LIKE THIS,

AND THE BREATH BEING MADE PALPABLY, VISUALLY PRESENT.

IT'S BEAUTIFUL, IT'S BEAUTIFUL.

AND I KNOW WHEN I'M MAKING WORK THAT I HAVE TO --

LIKE, THERE'S A POINT WHERE I CAN'T SEE IT,

I CAN'T SEE IT IN MY HEAD, AND THEN, YOU KNOW,

THERE'S THAT MOMENT WHERE YOU CAN SEE IT,

AND YOU THINK IT MIGHT BE BEAUTIFUL.

IT HAS, AND YOU, IT'S LIKE IT BITES YOU.

YOU KNOW, AND THEN YOU WILL GO TO ALL ENDS SOMETIMES

TO TRY TO SEE IT, IN FACT.

AND OF COURSE, IT'S ALWAYS DIFFERENT

OR SOMETHING ELSE, BUT...

Man: I'M REAL INTERESTED IN USING, LIKE, KITSCH OBJECTS

AND TRYING TO CREATE SPIRITUAL-LIKE ALTARS.

THIS SORT OF WEIRD DISNEYFICATION OF NATURE

THAT HAPPENS IN WESTERN SOCIETY,

YOU KNOW, WHEREAS IN NATIVE MYTHOLOGIES,

ANIMALS ARE EXTREMELY POWERFUL TOTEM SYMBOLS,

DEMANDING, YOU KNOW, FEAR AND RESPECT.

SO THOSE CONTRADICTIONS

ARE REAL IMPORTANT IN MY WORK.

YOU KNOW, IN KIND OF TRYING TO BLEND THEM INTO

SORT OF A HYBRID MYTHOLOGY.

"FOREST AT NIGHT" IS MADE UP OF 12 TREES.

EACH TREE HAS 12 ARMS ON EACH SIDE.

AND 12 IS SOMETHING THAT'S IMPORTANT

IN BOTH CHRISTIAN AND NAVAJO MYTHOLOGY.

AND THEN, IN A LITTLE PLATE IN FRONT OF EACH TREE STUMP

IS SOME SAWDUST, SORT OF LIKE ASHES

OF SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN CREMATED.

I'M MORE INTERESTED IN THE AMBIGUITY.

I THINK THE AMBIGUITY IS WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE SPIRITUAL LIES.

THAT'S HOW NAVAJOS SING "OLD MacDONALD."

Woman: YES, I'M RIDING MY DONKEY UP THE HILL.

[ SINGING IN NAVAJO ]

THAT'S HOW HE BUMPS UP AND DOWN.

Woman: SING WITH GRANDMA.

[ SINGING IN NAVAJO ]

Feodorov: I HAVE THIS BACKGROUND

OF A TRADITIONAL NAVAJO

AND THIS SORT OF OUTSIDER CHRISTIAN

BACKGROUND OF JEHOVAH WITNESSES,

WHICH ARE COMPLETELY OPPOSED TO EACH OTHER.

AND I'M, LIKE, IN THE MIDDLE,

TRYING TO KIND OF, YOU KNOW, MAKE SENSE OUT OF IT.

Grandma: THIS IS GRANDPA AGAIN WITH HIS HORSES.

AND GRANDMA WITH HER HORSE AND HILLARY

READY TO GO SOMEWHERE, TO A POWWOW.

Feodorov: MY GRANDMOTHER WAS A HAND TREMBLER.

AND PEOPLE WOULD GO TO HER,

AND HER HAND WOULD BEGIN TO TREMBLE AND SHE WOULD, LIKE,

ANSWER QUESTIONS FOR THEM.

AND HAND TREMBLERS SORT OF, ARE ORACLES.

Grandma: HERE'S GRANDMA AND GRANDPA AGAIN.

AND THEN -- OH, HERE YOU ARE.

YOU'RE WALKING WITH GRANDPA.

Feodorov: I SPENT JUST ABOUT EVERY SUMMER

WITH MY GRANDPARENTS ON THE RESERVATION

UNTIL PROBABLY, LIKE, 15.

Grandmother: GRANDPA ALWAYS LOOKS SO SERIOUS,

BUT HE'S VERY COMICAL.

Feodorov: WELL, MY GRANDFATHER USED TO BE A YEI BE CHEI DANCER,

WHICH IS ONE OF THE RITUALISTIC DANCES,

WHERE THEY PUT ON THE MASK, AND THEY BECOME THE GODS.

YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY START DANCING, THE SPIRIT

ENTERS INTO THEM.

THE BEAR IS A VERY, VERY POWERFUL TOTEM SYMBOL

FOR NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURES.

BEHIND THESE MASKS ARE CUDDLY, CUTE LITTLE FACES.

IT'S TURNING THESE TEDDY BEARS

INTO POWERFUL TOTEM SYMBOLS,

SORT OF GIVING THEM BACK THEIR POWER.

BUT ALSO THEY WOULD BE PRODUCTS THAT CONSUMERS COULD BUY.

SO AT THE SAME TIME WE'D BE STRIPPING THEM OF THEIR POWER.

THEY'RE JUST SORT OF EXAMPLES OF THE ISSUE

OF COMMODIFYING SPIRITUALITY.

PEOPLE THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, MANY TIMES WHEN THEY BUY --

OR AT LEAST THE ADVERTISING WANTS PEOPLE TO BELIEVE

THAT BUYING SOMETHING WILL CHANGE THEIR LIVES

OR HAVE AN AFFECT ON THEIR LIVES.

WELL, THIS IS SOMETHING

THAT IS JUST OUTRIGHT TELLING YOU THAT.

I MADE A LITTLE HANDBOOK THAT WOULD ACCOMPANY YOUR PURCHASE.

"CONGRATULATIONS, YOU HAVE JUST PURCHASED

"THE MOST IMPORTANT PRODUCT OF YOUR LIFE.

"IF YOUR LIFE IS NOT GOING THE WAY YOU WISH IT WOULD,

"CHANCES ARE YOU HAVE

"SOMEHOW OFFENDED YOUR TOTEM TEDDY.

"IF THIS IS THE CASE, USE THE HANDY SPINNING ORACLE

"TO DETERMINE WHAT YOU MUST DO

TO APPEASE YOUR OFFENDED TOTEM TEDDY."

AND IT ALWAYS GOES TO "TRY AGAIN."

"WARNING -- THE CONSUMER MUST USE EXTREME CAUTION

"WHEN PERFORMING ANY OF THE FOLLOWING DANCES

AND CHANTS."

YOU KNOW, LIKE CHRISTIANS, YOU KNOW,

"PLEASE, GOD, FORGIVE ME FOR THIS,"

OR, YOU KNOW, "PLEASE, GOD, LET ME HAVE..."

YOU KNOW THERE'S NONE OF THAT IN NAVAJO MYTHOLOGY.

YOU BASICALLY DO THE RITUAL AND IT HAS TO GO RIGHT.

IF, YOU KNOW, YOUR SITUATION HAS TO BE CORRECTED.

IF IT'S NOT, WELL, IT'S BECAUSE YOU DID THE RITUAL WRONG.

I'M NOT DEBUNKING SPIRITUALITY, I'M NOT MAKING FUN OF IT,

I AM...

WELL, YEAH, I AM.

BUT THE THING IS IS THAT IT'S ONLY BECAUSE

I THINK IT'S NECESSARY.

YEARS OF SPOON-BENDING RESEARCH HAS SHOWN THAT

EMPLOYEES WHO FREQUENTLY JOURNEY TO THE WORLD OF THE DEAD

COME BACK AS HIGHLY MOTIVATED EMPLOYEES,

EXACTLY WHAT YOU NEED TO BE ON TOP AND STAY ON TOP.

THAT'S WHY WE DEVELOPED

THE OFFICE SHAMAN.

BUT, YOU'RE PROBABLY ASKING YOURSELF,

WHERE'S THE SHAMAN?

THAT'S THE BEAUTY PART.

WE HAVE HIGHLY TRAINED LICENSED SHAMANS

AVAILABLE TO GUIDE YOUR EMPLOYEES

THROUGH THEIR SPIRIT QUESTS.

HERE'S A POTENTIAL MOTIVATED EMPLOYEE RIGHT NOW.

WHAT'S YOUR NAME, SIR?

IT'S PAUL.

PAUL, NOW, DON'T BE AFRAID, BUT I KILL YOU FROM THE SOUTH,

I KILL YOU FROM THE EAST.

PAUL STEWART AND I HAVE BEEN

COLLABORATING ON MUSIC AND, SORT OF, PERFORMANCE ART PIECES

FOR ALMOST 20 YEARS.

YOU'RE PASSING THROUGH THE WORLD OF FIRE,

OF WATER.

I AM NOW GOING TO SPRINKLE YOU

WITH THE GRAVE DIRT OF YOUR ANCESTORS.

THE ANIMAL SPIRITS HAVE NOW BEEN PACIFIED.

AND HERE ARE THEIR MESSAGES.

PAUL, STAND UP.

WELCOME BACK.

HOW DO YOU FEEL?

I FEEL FINE.

NOW, BACK TO WORK.

THANKS, OFFICE SHAMAN.

Feodorov: I'M STILL NOT REALLY INTERESTED

IN MAKING COMFORTABLE WORKS, LIKE MATISSE SAID, YOU KNOW,

THAT ART SHOULD BE LIKE A COMFY CHAIR.

I THINK IT SHOULD BE PROVOKING.

SINCE I KNEW THAT THESE WERE PAINTINGS THAT

WERE GOING TO BE IN OFFICE SPACES,

I WANTED TO CREATE PAINTINGS THAT WERE SHOWING

THE ENVIRONMENT THAT,

YOU KNOW, THAT THE WORKERS WERE IN.

SEEING THE CORPORATION AS LIKE A HEAVEN.

YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE ALL THESE DIFFERENT STEPS OF DEITIES.

THE COMPOSITION IS OBVIOUSLY MODELED ON, LIKE,

EARLY MEDIEVAL ICONS.

THE CEO IS SEATED IN THE THRONE

LIKE A CHRIST FIGURE WOULD BE

IN THE TYMPANUM AREA OF A CATHEDRAL.

AND THE HAND IS SHAPED LIKE A POSE, YOU KNOW,

THAT THE CHRIST FIGURE MAKES,

WHICH IS A BLESSING POSE FOR THE HAND.

OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, HE'S STUCK A CIGAR IN THERE,

WHICH HAS COMPLETELY DEFILED THAT TRADITION.

AND TO SEE THE CEO AS, YOU KNOW,

NOT JUST A GUY THAT GETS PAID A BIG SALARY,

BUT AS A DEITY.

ON VERY FEW PAINTINGS HAVE I KNOWN WHAT I WAS GOING TO DO

WHEN I STARTED THE PAINTING.

FOR ME IT HAS TO HAPPEN AS I'M DOING IT, YOU KNOW?

IT'S A BATTLE FOR ME,

IT ALWAYS IS.

IT'S LIKE THIS CANVAS IS LIKE MOCKING ME,

SAYING, YOU KNOW, I DARE YOU TO MAKE SOMETHING OUT OF ME.

SO IT'S SOMETHING FOR ME THAT'S NOT REALLY AN ENJOYABLE PROCESS,

IT'S A STRUGGLE, YOU KNOW?

AND I GUESS I LIKE THE STRUGGLE.

Sikander: THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT THE PROCESS,

THE MINIATURE PROCESS OF PAINTING.

AND THE SCALE PRIMARILY WHICH KEEPS IT

IN CONTROL.

I'M BASICALLY STAINING THE PAPER.

AND IT HAS TO BE A VERY EVEN STAIN.

IT'S SLOW, AND YOU HAVE TO KEEP THE EDGE OF THE TEA

REALLY SORT OF ALWAYS

IN FLOW SO THAT YOU JUST DRIP THE WHOLE EDGE DOWN STEADILY.

IT'S VERY MEDITATIVE.

AND THERE'S A SENSE OF FAMILIARITY

BECAUSE A LOT OF YEARS HAVE GONE IN HERE.

ONE THING I'VE LEARNED IS

RESPECT FOR TRADITION AND RESPECT FOR PATIENCE.

BECAUSE YOU JUST CANNOT ACHIEVE ANYTHING --

LIKE, YOU CAN'T ACHIEVE A PAINTING IF YOU DON'T --

LIKE, YOU NEED TIME -- TIME IS THE KEY.

SO I CAN'T, LIKE, DO A SHOW

AND PREPARE A BODY OF WORK IN A YEAR.

I NEED THREE TO FOUR YEARS.

MINIATURE PAINTING, YOU KNOW,

COMES OUT OF BOOK ILLUSTRATION,

MANUSCRIPT PAINTING --

IT'S AN OLD ART FORM.

ALL THE STRANGE PILED UP, STACKED UP PERSPECTIVE,

INTERIOR SPACES,

AND THEN SUGGESTIONS OF WINDOWS AND DOORS,

WHICH SUGGEST THE OUTSIDE WORLD OR THE SPIRITUAL WORLD,

OR SOME NOTION OF PERFECTION.

THAT KIND OF JEWEL-LIKE TRANSLUCENCY THAT COMES THROUGH

IS ONLY BECAUSE YOU HAVE A DISCIPLINE BEHIND IT.

IT TAKES MANY, MANY LAYERS,

AT LEAST, LIKE, 10 TO 20 LAYERS OF DIFFERENT COLOR

TO BUILD IT UP.

AND YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL

BECAUSE IF YOUR BRUSH IS LOADED WITH TOO MUCH WATER,

YOU LIFT OFF THE EARLIER LAYERS OR PIGMENT ALSO,

BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT SEALED.

SO IT'S PRACTICE.

SOMETIMES, LIKE, WHEN I'M NOT IN PRACTICE,

ALL THE 10 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE DOESN'T MEAN A THING.

AND WHEN WE WERE STUDYING IN SCHOOL IN PAKISTAN,

MY TEACHER USED TO

HAVE US SIT ON THE FLOOR ON WHITE SHEETS.

AND YOU HAD TO LEAVE YOUR SHOES OUTSIDE.

AND EVERYTHING WAS VERY PRECISE AND VERY CLEAN AND VERY MINIMUM.

AND YOU WORKED ON YOUR WORK, AND YOU DID EYE EXERCISES.

YOU KEPT YOUR WORK

AT LEAST A FOOT AWAY FROM YOUR EYES.

AND IT WAS VERY METHODICAL.

IT HAD A VERY SORT OF -- IT WAS VERY RITUALISTIC, ALSO.

I FEEL LIKE ACQUIRING

OF MINIATURE PAINTING EARLY ON --

FOR ME, IT WAS PAINTING.

I WAS LOOKING AND UNDERSTANDING

THE FORMAL SENSIBILITY OF PAINTING,

EXCEPT I WAS NOT PAINTING ON CANVAS

AND I WAS PAINTING ON PAPER

WITH A PARTICULAR SET OF MATERIAL.

BUT IT WAS ALL ABOUT SURFACE, PALETTE, FORM,

COMPOSITION, STYLIZATION.

AND SELF-EXPRESSION CAME LATER.

A LOT OF MY WORK IS DEEPLY PERSONAL,

AND IT'S DRAWN OUT OF MEMORY.

IF YOU LOOK AT THIS PARTICULAR BORDER,

IT'S CALLED "WRITING THE WRITTEN."

AND HERE THE TEXT BECOMES MORE LIKE HORSES,

OR THERE'S A SUGGESTIONS OF MOVEMENT.

AND THAT ASPECT

IS MY EXPERIENCE OF READING THE KORAN,

WHERE I WOULD READ IT WITH NO PARTICULAR UNDERSTANDING

BECAUSE I WAS A CHILD.

AND I COULD READ ARABIC, BUT I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND IT.

AND THE MEMORY OF IT IS THIS AMAZING VISUAL MEMORY,

WHERE THE BEAUTY OF THE WRITTEN WORD SUPERSEDES EVERYTHING ELSE.

THE MEANING IS THERE, BUT IT'S NOT JUST THE MEANING,

IT'S THE ABILITY OF THE WRITTEN TEXT TO TAKE YOU

TO THAT OTHER LEVEL.

MY WHOLE PURPOSE OF TAKING ON MINIATURE PAINTING

WAS TO BREAK THE TRADITION,

TO EXPERIMENT WITH IT,

TO FIND NEW WAYS OF MAKING MEANING,

TO QUESTION THE RELEVANCE OF IT.

THE STARTING POINT IN ALL MY WORK,

WHETHER IT'S SMALL OR IT'S LARGE,

ACTUALLY BEGINS AS SIMPLE DRAWINGS.

WHICH ARE DONE ON TRANSPARENT TISSUE PAPER.

A LOT OF THE IMAGES THAT EXIST IN MY WORK

WERE HAPPENING BECAUSE I WAS INTERESTED IN

SUBVERTING HINDU WITH MUSLIM AND MUSLIM WITH HINDU.

HAVING GROWN UP AS A MUSLIM IN PAKISTAN,

I DIDN'T HAVE THAT MUCH INFORMATION

ABOUT HINDU MYTHOLOGY.

AND WHEN I CAME HERE, I REALIZED THAT THESE WERE

THE THINGS WHICH STILL INTERESTED ME.

AND I WAS LOOKING AT THE IDEA OF THE HINDU GODDESS,

BUT IT DIDN'T MATTER HOW MANY HANDS IT HAD,

JUST THE NOTION THAT IT WAS THE FEMALE BODY

WITH SEVERAL HANDS WAS IMPORTANT.

BUT THE GODDESS HAS A VERY SPECIFIC FACE.

AND HERE I WAS

STRIPPING OFF THE FACE AND PUTTING LIKE A HEADDRESS,

LIKE THE VEIL ON TOP OF IT.

AND YET THE VEIL IS ON TOP OF A HINDU GODDESS,

NOT TO UNDERESTIMATE WHAT'S BEHIND THE VEIL.

THE MINUTE YOU BRING THE WORD "VEIL"

INTO THE EQUATION,

IT KIND OF CONNECTS YOU TO A MUSLIM IDENTITY,

OR A WOMAN'S IDENTITY.

AND THESE ARE VERY LOADED ISSUES TO TAKE ON

BECAUSE ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING ASSOCIATED WITH ISLAM

IS EITHER TERRORISM OR OPPRESSION FOR WOMEN.

CULTURALLY, IT'S NOT, YOU KNOW, MY EXPERIENCE.

MY GRANDPARENTS, MY PARENTS,

EVERYBODY WAS VERY, VERY PROGRESSIVE,

VERY SUPPORTIVE PEOPLE.

MY GRANDFATHER WAS VERY ENCOURAGING

TOWARDS CAREERS FOR WOMEN, EVERYBODY,

ALL THE GIRLS IN THE FAMILY,

THEY DID SOMETHING WITH THEIR LIVES.

Woman: BUT THEN I WAS MORE KEEN,

IF SHE'S GOING TO THE NATIONAL COLLEGE OF ARTS,

THEN SHE MIGHT AS WELL DO ARCHITECTURE, WHICH HAS SCOPE.

YOU KNOW, AND LIKE, YOU KNOW, WHEN SHE SAID,

"FINE ARTS," ONE WAS ORIGINAL --

AT THE MOST YOU JUST HANG A FEW PAINTINGS IN THE HOUSE,

WHETHER YOU HAVE A FUTURE OR NOT.

SO ONE WAS SKEPTICAL ABOUT THAT.

Sikander: THIS TYPE OF WORK FOR ME WAS LIKE

JUST THE OPPOSITE

OF THE PROCESS OF DOING MINIATURE PAINTING.

THIS PARTICULAR INSTALLATION IS MUCH, MUCH MORE SPONTANEOUS,

IT'S ALWAYS A CHALLENGE BECAUSE THE DECISIONS MADE ARE FAST.

IT INVOLVES MY ENTIRE BODY.

IT'S LIKE I'M WORKING

WITHIN THE SPACE, AND I'M UP AND DOWN,

YOU KNOW, THE LADDERS,

AND I'M, LIKE, PAINTING,

AND THEN EVERYTHING KIND OF HAPPENS

FROM START TILL END WITHIN, LIKE, FOUR OR FIVE DAYS.

SO THERE'S A CERTAIN ENERGY WHICH COMES OUT.

THERE IS A CERTAIN SENSE

OF A LITTLE RELIEF

WHERE SEVERAL DRAWINGS HAVE BEEN HUNG ON TOP OF EACH OTHER.

THERE'S NO INTENTION TO HIDE ANYTHING.

EVERYTHING IS VERY VISIBLE.

THE PAPER IS TRANSPARENT.

IT FLOAT, IT MOVES.

THE IDEA, YOU KNOW, COMES OUT OF THIS WHOLE RELATIONSHIP

TO VEILING AND REVEALING.

I'M ALWAYS TAKING PHOTOGRAPHS, DOING SKETCHES, OR TAKING NOTES.

AND THEN I CARRY THEM

WHEREVER I GO.

I BROUGHT SO MUCH STUFF FROM PAKISTAN,

AND THEN SO MUCH STUFF FROM TEXAS,

AND THEN EVERY TIME I SIT TO DO SOME WORK,

ALL OF IT IS OPENED UP.

FOR ME, IT'S ALWAYS LIKE THESE DIVINE CIRCLES.

YOU KNOW, YOU GO AND YOU EXPERIENCE SOMETHING

AND THEN YOU COME BACK RIGHT WHERE YOU STARTED.

WHEN I'M WORKING LARGE

AND I PAINT AND I DO MURALS,

THE NEXT THING IS ALWAYS

I COME BACK TO MINIATURE PAINTING.

I CAN HATE MINIATURE FOR A WHILE BECAUSE IT'S FRUSTRATING,

BECAUSE FOR ALL THE DIFFERENT REASONS

OF DOING SOMETHING SO LABOR INTENSIVE.

YOU KNOW, IT TAKES YEARS TO MAKE.

SO, IT'S LIKE ALWAYS, WHY DO I DO THIS?

AND I LET GO AND I DO SOMETHING ELSE,

BUT I ALWAYS COME BACK TO IT.

AND MAYBE BECAUSE BY THE SHEER ACT OF DOING IT

IS WHAT GIVES ME

A CERTAIN SORT OF, YOU KNOW, PEACE.

Man: GENERALLY WE USE LIGHT --

WE DON'T REALLY PAY MUCH ATTENTION TO LIGHT ITSELF.

THAT'S MY INTEREST --

THIS FASCINATION WITH LIGHT AND HOW WE COME TO LIGHT.

Woman: WHEN YOU REALLY START TO LOOK,

THEN YOU SORT OF LOSE YOURSELF.

AND THAT'S WHEN IT BECOMES

SORT OF DISORIENTING.

WHOA.

IT'S SORT OF AN ESCAPE

FROM EVERY THING THAT'S ABOVE,

YOU KNOW, WITH THE BUSTLING OF THE STREETS.

AND BECAUSE IT'S RIGHT UNDER THE STREET,

AND YOU WOULDN'T THINK IT WOULD BE SO NICE DOWN HERE.

Turrell: I HAD THIS THOUGHT TO JUST BRING THE COSMOS CLOSER

DOWN TO THE SPACE WHERE WE OCCUPY.

IT ALWAYS SOMETHING TO WORK WITH LIGHT AND THE OUTDOORS.

I SPENT SEVEN MONTHS FLYING IN WESTERN STATES.

AND THAT WAS HOW I FOUND RODEN CRATER,

WHICH IS ON THE WESTERN EDGE OF THE PAINTED DESERT.

IT HAD TO SORT OF

MEET THIS CRITERIA OF A CERTAIN HEIGHT.

AND IT'S NICE THAT IT WAS AWAY FROM OTHER ONES...

BUT I THINK THE IMPORTANT THING

IS JUST THIS KIND OF SENSE OF POWER

THAT EACH SPACE OR EACH PLACE HAS.

SO THE PLACE FELT RIGHT.

AND I WANTED THE BOWL SHAPE THAT WAS RAISED ABOVE THE PLANE.

THAT WAS IMPORTANT.

SO THAT YOU COME UP THE SPACE, AND THEN YOU GO THROUGH THIS

AND YOU SEE THE SHAPING OF SKY.

AND THEN WHEN YOU COME OUT,

THERE'S ACTUALLY A SHAPING OF EARTH.

Man: THE CRATER IS A WONDERFUL EXAMPLE OF BLENDING

HARD SCIENCE, A PHYSICAL SCIENCE,

WITH ART, AND VICE VERSA.

CELESTIAL EVENTS WILL BE APPARENT

AT THE CRATER SITE THAT YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO SEE --

ONLY BE ABLE TO SEE

IN A FEW OTHER SPOTS ON THE EARTH.

Turrell: TO HAVE A CERTAIN

NEW EIGHT-AND-A-HALF-MINUTE-OLD LIGHT FROM THE SUN,

TO FEEL IT PHYSICALLY, ALMOST AS WE TASTE THINGS.

THIS IS WHERE YOU CAN WORK WITH LIGHT LIKE THAT.

ALSO I WANTED TO USE

THE VERY FINE QUALITIES OF LIGHT.

I WANTED TO GATHER STAR LIGHT

THAT WAS FROM OUTSIDE THE PLANETARY SYSTEM,

WHICH WOULD BE OLDER THAN OUR SOLAR SYSTEM.

AND YOU CAN GATHER THAT LIGHT AND PHYSICALLY HAVE THAT

IN A PLACE SO THAT IT'S PHYSICALLY PRESENT

TO FEEL THIS OLD LIGHT.

THIS IS THE OPENING TO THE CRATER,

SO IT'S AN ELLIPTICAL SKY SPACE.

THE SPACES REALLY TAKE YOU UP INTO THE SKY.

AND CERTAINLY THE EVENTS FROM THE SKY COME THROUGH THEM

DOWN INTO THE CRATER.

SO THIS OPENING UP INTO THE SKY

IS SOMETHING I REALLY LIKE.

Walker: I MET JIM TURRELL ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO.

JIM IS A BIG THINKER, THINKS BIG.

HE HAD AN IDEA TO POINT A TUNNEL

THROUGH THE CRATER WALL

TO FACE THE SOUTHWESTERN PART OF THE SKY,

WHERE THE MOON WOULD APPEAR EVERY 18.6 YEARS.

A CYCLE CALLED THE SOROS, OR A LOWER LUNAR STANDSTILL.

THE CYCLE OF THE MOON HAS BEEN KNOWN

SINCE THE DAYS OF THE BABYLONIAN RECORDS.

SO IT GOES BACK 8,000, 10,000 YEARS.

Turrell: AND YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE THIS, THE IMAGE OF THIS,

DOWN INSIDE THE SUN AND MOON SPACE --

THEN YOU'D HAVE ABOUT 20 MINUTES TO WALK UP TO THE TOP

AND ACTUALLY SEE IT SET ON THE HORIZON.

YET THE STRANGEST THING IS THAT WE HAVE MADE REAL

AN ACTUAL ILLUSION.

THAT IS WHEN WE CAMP OUT,

WE THINK THAT THE SUN RISES IN THE EAST,

OR IF WE'RE AT NIGHT, IT LOOKS AS THOUGH THE STARS

COME UP IN THE EAST AND MOVE OVER US AND GO DOWN IN THE WEST.

WHEN ACTUALLY, WE ARE TURNED IN THE OPPOSITE --

THE EARTH IS TURNING THE OPPOSITE WAY.

BUT WE DON'T FEEL THAT.

SO IN THE NORTH SPACE I'VE REMOVED ALL REFERENCE TO HORIZON

SO YOUR FIELD OF REFERENCE ARE THE STARS,

AND SO WHAT HAPPENS IS YOU FEEL YOURSELF TO BE MOVING,

ALMOST TIPPING.

SO IF YOU WERE SITTING BACK IN HERE,

IN THIS SEAT HERE,

YOU ACTUALLY WILL SEE THE ROTATION OF THE EARTH,

AND YOU CAN FEEL THAT.

Woman: JAMES HAD A LIFETIME GOAL OF BUILDING A MEETING HOUSE

THAT WAS REALLY USED AS A MEETING HOUSE.

SO WHEN HE HEARD THAT HOUSTON

WANTED TO BUILD A MEETING HOUSE

AND WAS IN THE PROCESS OF DOING THAT AND RAISING MONEY,

HE OFFERED TO DONATE HIS ART.

Turrell: WELL, FOR ME, THAT WAS KIND OF

THE MEETING HOUSE I ALWAYS WANTED TO SEE.

I MEAN, IT'S A VERY TRADITIONAL FORM,

EXCEPT IT'S CONVERTIBLE.

THE TOP OPENS AND IT MAKES THE SKY SPACE WHERE SKY

IS REALLY BROUGHT DOWN TO YOU IN THE SPACE WHERE YOU SIT.

Woman: YOU'RE NEVER QUITE PREPARED

FOR WHAT THE LIGHT IS GOING TO DO TO YOU

AND WHAT THE INTERACTION WITH NATURE

AND WHAT THE SUBLIME QUIET WILL DO WHEN YOU COME INTO

A PLACE LIKE THIS AND JUST SIMPLY SLOW DOWN.

Drexler: BEING A LIFETIME QUAKER,

WE FELT STRONGLY THAT JAMES WOULD NOT DESIGN ANYTHING

THAT WAS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR OUR WORSHIP.

WE'RE HOPING THAT OUR MEETING HOUSE

BECOMES AN ECUMENICAL PLACE

WHERE PEOPLE COULD FIND INNER PEACE.

Turrell: I THINK I WAS MAYBE FIVE OR SIX,

AND MY GRANDMOTHER WOULD BEGIN TAKING ME IN

AND SITTING ME IN THE QUAKER MEETING HOUSE

AND WE WOULD JUST SIT IN THERE TOGETHER.

THERE'S THIS TIME

WHEN YOU ARE NO LONGER IN FIRST DAY SCHOOL,

BUT YOU ACTUALLY COME AND JOIN THE MEETING.

AND I REMEMBER, I TRIED TO --

YOU KNOW, ASKING MY GRANDMOTHER,

YOU KNOW, "WHAT ARE WE DOING, WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO?"

AND SHE SAID,

"JUST WAIT, WE'RE GOING INSIDE TO GREET THE LIGHT."

I LIKED THAT...

THIS IDEA TO GO INSIDE TO FIND THAT LIGHT WITHIN,

LITERALLY AS WELL AS FIGURATIVELY.

AND SO I WAS VERY INTERESTED IN THIS SORT OF LITERAL LOOK AT IT.

OF COURSE I'M STILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT

EXACTLY WHAT SHE MEANT.

MY DAUGHTER WAS BORN

WHEN I FIRST HAD THE IDEA FOR THE CRATER.

WENT TO COLLEGE AND UNIVERSITY,

GOT HER MEDICAL DEGREE,

AND NOW IS A DOCTOR AND IS MARRIED.

I'M STILL NOT FINISHED WITH THE CRATER.

SO I'VE GOT TO GET ALONG HERE AND GET THIS THING DONE.

TO KEEP THE CRATER, I HAD TO GO GET A LOAN FROM FARM CREDIT

AND REALLY GET INVOLVED IN RANCHING

BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T LOAN MONEY ON VACANT LAND.

SO SUDDENLY I HAVE A ONE-POINT, MILLION DOLLAR MORTGAGE.

AND THIS IS NOT INTERESTING TO MY WIFE,

AND SHE FELT I WAS MORTGAGING OUR CHILDREN'S FUTURE.

PUT YOUR HEAD UP, BUDDY.

Man: WE RUN ALMOST SEPARATE OPERATIONS.

THE CATTLE ARE MY DEPARTMENT, AND THE YARD IS HIS DEPARTMENT.

PAYDAY IS ONCE A YEAR --

IT'S IN THE FALL WHEN YOU SELL THE CALVES.

AND THINGS CAN GO PRETTY WELL OR THEY CAN GO PRETTY SOUR,

DEPENDING ON THE PRICE OF CATTLE AT THAT TIME.

JIM DOESN'T STAY REAL HAPPY WHEN THE PRICE OF CATTLE IS LOW.

WELL, IMAGINE THAT.

Turrell: PEOPLE OFTEN ASK ME HOW MUCH

THIS CRATER COSTS.

AND, YOU KNOW,

IT COST ME TWO MARRIAGES AND A RELATIONSHIP.

THOSE ARE THE PLACES WHERE YOU FEEL

THE GREATEST DISCOURAGEMENT, AS YOU SEE...

IT'S SOMETIMES HARD FOR OTHERS TO FOLLOW WHAT YOU THINK

IS THE NATURAL COURSE OF THINGS,

AND HOW TO GET SOMETHING DONE.

Walker: IF YOU LOOK AT THE HORIZON,

IT'S A MILKY, CLOUDY TYPE OF VIEW.

AS YOU GO HIGHER IN THE SKY, THE SKY BECOMES A UNIFORM BLUE,

MAYBE WITH CLOUDS.

BUT IF YOU CAN BE IN A WELL, SO TO SPEAK, OR IN A CRATER,

LIKE RODEN, YOU SEE NO CONTRAST

WITH THE DEPTH OF THE SKY AND YOUR VIEW.

SO YOU'VE REALIZED ITS CLOSENESS.

AND SOMETIMES IF YOU'RE CONSCIOUS ENOUGH,

YOU'LL DISCOVER THAT YOU'RE IN THE ATMOSPHERE,

YOU'RE NOT SEPARATED FROM THE SKY.

AT NIGHT, AND EVEN DURING THE DAY

YOU HAVE THIS FEELING THAT YOU'RE ONE WITH THE UNIVERSE.

YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU READ A BOOK,

YOU'RE OFTEN SO INVOLVED IN THE SPACE

GENERATED BY THE AUTHOR

THAT WHATEVER HAPPENS IN FRONT OF YOU DISAPPEARS.

PEOPLE PASS BY, YOU DON'T EVEN NOTICE THEM.

SO YOU'VE PAID THE PRICE OF ADMISSION

AND YOU'VE ENTERED THAT SPACE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE COME TO ART AND THEY LOOK AT IT,

AND THIS IS ONE OF THE PROBLEMS OF CONTEMPORARY ART.

AND SO THEY DON'T ACTUALLY ENTER THE REALM

THAT THE ARTIST WAS INVOLVED IN.

WE HAVE A LITTLE MORE OF A DISTANCE THERE.

AND THE SITUATION OF THE JOURNEY TO THE PLACE, LIKE RODEN CRATER,

THE FACT THAT YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING

OR SOME INVOLVEMENT TO HAVE THIS COME OVER YOU,

YOU HAVE TO QUIET,

AND IT ACTUALLY MAKES THIS EXPERIENCE

I THINK, MUCH STRONGER.

Woman: YOU CAN ALWAYS SEE THE LINE WAVER --

THAT'S WHERE THE BEAUTY IS.

Man: BEAUTY EMBODIES WHAT WE CONSIDER UGLY,

AS WELL AS WHAT WE CONSIDER BEAUTIFUL.

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